CartCollector (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@abeismain Because so-called "libertarianism" is just an excuse for the oppressors to oppress more and the exploiters to exploit more. The only "liberty" it defends is despotism.

pguitarb (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@AroundSun This is the basic logic that needs to be built upon to come up with answers to people who will say "well how would a voluntary society look?" Simple.

LanIost (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Anyone know what the background music is? It's friggen awesome and I want to get a high quality version of it. =/ Can't exactly google "flute> bo WIDDLE BALITTLE WIDDLE" Want it. Now. =(

nolekulikali (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@neohashi Think of pragmatism: Today all territories on earth are already (semi-legit) property of someone... it wouldn't be rightous to steal these from their (at least semi-righful) owners.

nolekulikali (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@neohashi I agree. There is a discussion going on at the freiwilligfrei.info community board (German). My point was, the first claim of territory is illegitime, but trading with illegitime goods, "makes these goods" legit property. Another solution for general thefts: The thief (or his insurance agency) has to fully pay an equivalent value of property - if the theft it self can be clarified. But the "theft" of territory began like ten thousand years ago and surely cannot be clarified

neohashi (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@nolekulikali I asked about the implications not if it's true or accepted. One thing I can think of is that you can't claim nature as property unless modified. ex: nobody can claim the grand canyon as their private property by any other lawful means than by modification - spray paint it blue and it becomes the medium of your labor and therefor it is your property.

nolekulikali (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@neohashi this view is widely accepted as true/realistic. if you buy a potatoe, you buy the farmers time, energy and talent. simply as that.

nolekulikali (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@jkpboca But enforcing "ideals" that are supposed to have a positive outcome for all by "the right of the (deceived) majority" is the answer in your opinion? don't fall for collectivism please... or you'll find yourself under a second adolf hitler sooner than you can cry "jew".

neohashi (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

@1:48 (Property is the product of ones time, energy and talent) So where does material property (ownership) spring from as nobody creates matter using time, energy and talent? You can only own the manipulation not the medium. What are the implications?

redfoxbennaton (November 30, 1999 at 12:00 am)

Oh I see, so I don't have control over peoples lives as much as I have over my life? I guess sucks for the tough guys.